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「就好似話中國人真自私﹐我想在世上的所有民族也有自私這"劣根性"吧!(自私是很自然的求生本能。)」

不知道士兄是真的看不見,還是選擇性定看不見,還是心中早有定期,由一開始我已經說得很清楚,對這點也解釋得很明白。

乙型肝炎可不是中國人的專利,其他人種也有,但為何有些疾病,中國人比較容易有,發病率會比較高?

疾病的發病率,和遺傳學有關,和衛生條件有關;文化的「病毒」,問題亦是一樣,和文化的遺傳學--文化傳統有關,和文化的衛生環境--經濟水平有關。

至於中國以一個堂堂大國,幾千年的歷史文化,為何都無法建立一套「政治制度」,去令國民擁有更高的教育水平,生活在一個合適的環境,令黎民百姓可以擁有一個較佳的「物理層」環境,去追求「真」、「善」、「美」?這就是我認為需要面對的課題。

我亦提出了,「父為子隱,子為父隱」的問題--現實生活的中國人,即使到了今天,是否特別容易「幫親不幫理」?是否和西洋的法治精神,特別格格不入?中國人忽視法治的精神,是否特別多?請回應!

還有,小弟雖然不才,卻提了不少歷史人物;反之,這多位「國學大師」,卻提不出一個政治的歷史人物出來--道士兄,你又是不是「有意」或「無意」看漏了?

當然,有些人就是帶了有色眼鏡,看不過眼人家的「感性」,卻拿不出「理性」,回應不了任何「理性」的問題,於是唯有從「感性」著手--沒法子,隨便你吧,道士兄!

22 留言:

hystericireul 說...

變成謾罵了

林忌 說...

奇哉怪也,是道士謾罵,還是小弟謾罵呢?
hystericireul 兄,請你說清楚!

西毛西翼 說...

唔使嘈, 成班都叻仔, 每人獎十個叻!

道士 說...

When criticized for your vagueness and lack or reasoning, you're an impressionist expressing your feelings; when criticized for your lack of knowledge in classics and culture, you explain you're a science student; when of faulty reasoning, you accuse a imaginative judgement; when of your inabilities, you believe offended by ad hominem.

You know what, you want to be a welcomed guest, you think you're attacked cause your a petite writer? Ha, don't flatter yourself. OK, you want prove, make a list of what you want to be proved, I will try to provide you with a satifying answer, I will do my best as to explain to a kindergarden student.

You adore the western civilization. I LIVE in the western civilization for more than one third of my life﹐and I seriously doubt your understanding of the western society. You know what, I am a fucking science student too, but amongst the years, you're more like a red necker down south instead of a enlightened logical scholar that you claim yourself to be.

So be my guest, make your list, in artistic form, in scientific form, in Chinese or English. I will explain to you, as my courtesy, to a guest.

道士 說...

I will start with this essay. First, you're comparing cultural influence as a disease, don't forget even you're metaphorically comparing the two things, they're of an entire different nature.

Is cultural influence really like a virus, are you refering exactly to hepatitus B or you're refering to a virus generally, I can tell you that different virus behave differently. if you're refering to the genetic components leading to a easier infection for a culture. You'll have to prove it by lots of data... culture is a very general thing, which specific part of culture are you refering to, all Chinese, central China, or is there a specific area that you're refering to? And to what degree does this infection affects the mind of people? How much more stubborn are Chinese in compare with other Nations... You can't make a claim of these things just because you have a feeling that most chinese are more stubborn, catch my drift? If you know that it can be affected by one or more of the societies element, such as wealth, education, etc.... how can you determine that chinese are more stubborn cause of the culture, or genes? This is where your claim isn't supported.

不知道士兄是真的看不見,還是選擇性定看不見,還是心中早有定期,由一開始我已經說得很清楚,對這點也解釋得很明白。
乙型肝炎可不是中國人的專利,其他人種也有,但為何有些疾病,中國人比較容易有,發病率會比較高?
疾病的發病率,和遺傳學有關,和衛生條件有關--文化的「病毒」,問題亦是一樣,和文化傳統有關,和經濟環境有關。

道士 說...

Now you claim that Chinese can't construct a political system that supports better education/ environment. You claim of the inabilities of the Government to provide a more comfortable qualities of standard of living, to acheive some Fa lun kung Bullshit.

K, what political system chinese is running now? What other countries are running? You are making an awfully big claim here, you are saying that your own personal favourite democratic government is much more advance than a communitist government? that it's a certain way that the government should act to acheive a higher quality of standard?(I believe you're refering to US society if I am not mistaken, as of a great free land of the brave? )

Oh fucking please, as a politic system, it's always a choice between two evil. When we're in an age where there're still empires, kings and queens, are you claiming that those country should give up their sovereignty and become free. Are you saying that a democratic society is a certain way that lead the prosperity? that you can guarantee that it's the only way that a government should be run? economic figures doesn't prove you right, you know? crime level in society doesn't either. What about citizen's general level of satifaction? Are you saying the whole society should give up what they're having now and fight on the pursuit of your so called "enlighted utopian rational democratic society"?

至於中國以一個堂堂大國,幾千年的歷史文化,為何都無法建立一套「政治制度」,去令國民擁有更高的教育水平,生活在一個合適的環境,令黎民百姓可以擁有一個較佳的「物理層」環境,去追求「真」、「善」、「美」?這就是我認為需要面對的課題。

道士 說...

Now to the law and order in societies, ah, where the law leading where that justice must prevail. Are you retarded? How is the western court system providing your fair and virtue, when big coorperation can buy the top dog when the rest struggle with legal aids? See OJ simpson? he walks free.

Let me try to explain something, fairness, virtueness, integrity... no doubt the ideas are grand, they do exist in all society, and the same evilness such as greed, injustice will also coexist no matter which type of system or government is running. I know what type of ridiculous legal system you're refering to, but same as before, bribery, betrayal, injustice is going to exist, civil or not, developed or not, we can try to improve the situation, yet, these things happen in all society, accept it, else, correct it. Stop blaming it on government/ people/ culture.... etc

So you're against that "sons shouldn't betray their fathers", you should then highly support communism, cause a highly logical scholar like u will betray your father without a second thought, make sure your father knows that you're on his back, k?

我亦提出了,「父為子隱,子為父隱」的問題--現實生活的中國人,即使到了今天,是否特別容易「幫親不幫理」?是否和西洋的法治精神,特別格格不入?中國人忽視法治的精神,是否特別多?請回應!

林忌 說...

You can't make a claim of these things just because you have a feeling that most chinese are more stubborn, catch my drift?

看來以閣下的標準,比起要比法庭要把一個人定罪為高。

一個人提出一種假設,你可以支持,你可以反對--可是你卻選擇了人身攻擊--直至上面這篇文,才好了些少,可是仍然否定他人提出一種想法的權利。

是否提出中國文化的任何缺點,就要寫一篇論文,幾十版的,有數據的,對,有這樣的人,可是他們的職業,是教授、是某方面的博士;當然,這樣是最好的,問題是否達不到這樣的標準,就可以作為理據,攻擊對方「冇料到」,卻提不出反對呢?

我的文章比不比得上那些名家是一回事,有沒有權利去提出一種主張,是另一回事;魯迅如果今日寫孔乙己,寫阿Q 正傳,大抵也會被如閣下一樣的「文人」所大肆批判了--為何偏要「以偏蓋全」?

「accept it, else, correct it. Stop blaming it on government/ people/ culture.... etc」
原來連「提出反對」的意見,也是一個中國人所不能做的--連指出問題存在,也不能,而必須是一個醫生!

一個人頭痛,面青唇白,旁人說他是病了,要去看醫生--以道人的邏輯,說這是錯的,要不接受這種病患,要不就去做學醫,學完七年出來,還要醫得好,都不可以說人:「你病了」

「western court system providing your fair and virtue, when big coorperation can buy the top dog when the rest struggle with legal aids? See OJ simpson? he walks free」
某種語言寫得不錯,不代表你的理據比較充份--這又是一例;
道人兄你于妨高聲向所有人公告,西方的法治比起中式的人治差得多--中國的 OJ Simpson又何止一個?當然,對你來說,數字是永遠不重要的。

如果你有看過我寫龔如心的一篇文的話,你應當知道,法律可不是為了所謂絕對的公平公正的--而是相對的公平公正。

可是對於閣下這樣的邏輯來說,1-99 分之間,是沒有分別的--都不是滿分,就當是一樣了,這又是不是差不多先生呢?

「you're against that "sons shouldn't betray their fathers", you should then highly support communism, cause a highly logical scholar like u will betray your father without a second thought, make sure your father knows that you're on his back, k?」
當然要看你的父親是誰,做了什麼了--問題又是 1-99 的問題,你要維護你的父親,最起碼要有良知、一股法治的聲音,告訴你:「這樣是錯的」

可是孔子卻告訴你:「這樣是對的!」

道士 說...

Now, I am neither a historian or very cultured in chinese history, (a science student, remember?) but I know that there's 蘇軾﹐文天祥﹐岳飛 and much more great people that fight against the evil in the society. I don't think great people will be preoccupied with the stubborness and idiotness that you claim. 君子坦蕩蕩﹐I believe there's also more chinese that's open minded, 例如孫臏殘亦為用﹐《莊子·漁夫》見孔子不單認錯﹐還對漁夫禮敬有加﹐你還要幾多例子﹐先覺得中國人唔係個個死唔認衰? 摘善而固﹐有份偏執未必是壞事﹐不過同時亦要知錯能改。在心理學來說﹐你的別人狀態的那份執著﹐就是反影著自己的心理狀況﹐你不如慢慢想想再寫吧。

You're only keep on refering to that 柏楊, 黃仁宇 and 陶傑﹐老實說﹐如果他們幾人講的便不會錯﹐便是聖人﹐那麼還要什麼老子孔子?不如叫陶傑坐埋上蓮花比你供奉啦? 佢地數人﹐可能有佢地嘅親身經歷﹐不過你又照跟﹐盲踵踵又跟住罵。人地有兩分文學修養墊底﹐你呢?

Now I hope I am logical enough to explain how your claims are insufficient, but if I miss or am wrong in anything, please let me know.

還有,小弟雖然不才,卻提了不少歷史人物;反之,這多位「國學大師」,卻提不出一個政治的歷史人物出來--道士兄,你又是不是「有意」或「無意」看漏了?
當然,有些人就是帶了有色眼鏡,看不過眼人家的「感性」,卻有拿不出「理性」,回應不了任何「理性」的問題,於是唯有從「感性」著手--沒法子,隨便你吧,道士兄!

匿名 說...

黃帝蚩尤, 堯舜禹湯文武, 老子莊子孔子墨子, 孟子韓非子尹文子, 董仲舒韓愈朱熹陸九淵王陽明, 黃宗羲顧炎武; 司馬遷劉知幾錢穆, 柏拉圖馬基維里湯恩比; 夠未? 所以, 結論是, 林忌文章, 實屬下品.

群魔亂舞, 吾所欲也, 可惜林忌離開魔道實在他媽的十萬八千里, 真悶.

道士 說...

看來以閣下的標準,比起要比法庭要把一個人定罪為高。
I am trying to set a standard of a normal person, of an normal intelligence.

一個人提出一種假設,你可以支持,你可以反對--可是你卻選擇了人身攻擊--直至上面這篇文,才好了些少,可是仍然否定他人提出一種想法的權利。
I don't see how this line act as a personal offence.

是否提出中國文化的任何缺點,就要寫一篇論文,幾十版的,有數據的,對,有這樣的人,可是他們的職業,是教授、是某方面的博士;當然,這樣是最好的,問題是否達不到這樣的標準,就可以作為理據,攻擊對方「冇料到」,卻提不出反對呢?
of course not, one could make any claim, but when one makes a claim that can't be supported, or backed up, you should be willing to accept opinion from other people also.

我的文章比不比得上那些名家是一回事,有沒有權利去提出一種主張,是另一回事;魯迅如果今日寫孔乙己,寫阿Q 正傳,大抵也會被如閣下一樣的「文人」所大肆批判了--為何偏要「以偏蓋全」?
we never deny your right to make your claim, we're only saying how stupid your claim is. haha, I am not a scholar, just a normal person, with a normal view point.

「accept it, else, correct it. Stop blaming it on government/ people/ culture.... etc」
原來連「提出反對」的意見,也是一個中國人所不能做的--連指出問題存在,也不能,而必須是一個醫生!
ah, in a so called free society, when you want to claim freedom of speech, what makes you think other people can't make the same claim and criticize your criticization?

一個人頭痛,面青唇白,旁人說他是病了,要去看醫生--以道人的邏輯,說這是錯的,要不接受這種病患,要不就去做學醫,學完七年出來,還要醫得好,都不可以說人:「你病了」
nah, 我是說﹐你在無病呻吟﹐人地頭痛你指腳﹐人地放屁你話癌。

「western court system providing your fair and virtue, when big coorperation can buy the top dog when the rest struggle with legal aids? See OJ simpson? he walks free」
某種語言寫得不錯,不代表你的理據比較充份--這又是一例;
道人兄你于妨高聲向所有人公告,西方的法治比起中式的人治差得多--中國的 OJ Simpson又何止一個?當然,對你來說,數字是永遠不重要的。
that isn't true either, I see the problem in the justice system, but I am saying that you can't brand this problem cause by the chinese culture, it's a matter or cause and effect.... the problem with the justice system exist, but it'll be an awfully big claim if your claim the western civilization is the only answer to justice in society.

如果你有看過我寫龔如心的一篇文的話,你應當知道,法律可不是為了所謂絕對的公平公正的--而是相對的公平公正。
this I agree, there is no absolute justice

可是對於閣下這樣的邏輯來說,1-99 分之間,是沒有分別的--都不是滿分,就當是一樣了,這又是不是差不多先生呢?
haha, of course you'll be of a failure grade for me to be pissed off at, your logic is entirely messed by your arrogance and prejudice.

「you're against that "sons shouldn't betray their fathers", you should then highly support communism, cause a highly logical scholar like u will betray your father without a second thought, make sure your father knows that you're on his back, k?」
當然要看你的父親是誰,做了什麼了--問題又是 1-99 的問題,你要維護你的父親,最起碼要有良知、一股法治的聲音,告訴你:「這樣是錯的」
if you want to discuss a matter of degree, that will be an entirely different ground, do you want to walk into it?

可是孔子卻告訴你:「這樣是對的!」
confucious is outdated, no doubt he have many great words, yet we shouldn't follow one's ideas blindly. I don't think all people... heck, damn, in hk, how many students do you think even read confucious? you're claiming he still influence the whole country? no one should be that naive.

道士 說...

Under the principle of charity, I always offer chance for others to provide enough evidence to support their claim. The ultimate goal of an arguement is not to win, but hopefully discovering truth or a solution(relatively, if you say).

(refering to the second paragraph at 1:49am)oh﹐ you're refering to the essay. 選擇了諷刺式手法﹐也是因為你把責任推於感性發揮﹐喂﹐感性式都要有個譜架﹐大佬。你可感性式話晒全中國﹐我都係感性式話你一個嗟。我也非親中﹐但你叫得人仰慕理性思想﹐自己就感性批評。好啦﹐講文學﹐又話修養未到家。你話叫人唔好死唔認衰﹐但又一句都聽唔入耳。如果你呢D都叫理性分析﹐咁世界還讀乜羅輯﹑哲學? 如果你要投訴我用語粗俗﹐傷害了你自尊﹐好﹐我可放下面子(對單單用語態度一事道歉)﹐不過我的立場同樣吋步不移﹐咁夠文明未?

林忌 說...

「如果你要投訴我用語粗俗﹐傷害了你自尊﹐好﹐我可放下面子(對單單用語態度一事道歉)﹐不過我的立場同樣吋步不移﹐咁夠文明未?」

道士兄,這是一個好開始,就如何閣下所言,請用文明的語言去討論--hopefully discovering truth or a solution(relatively, if you say).

其餘,太夜了,等我吧..

刃岸 說...

咁不如話一切都是Xemu做的。

道士 說...

指責:「不知道士兄是真的看不見,還是選擇性定看不見」

我回應:選擇了諷刺式手法﹐也是因為你把責任推於感性發揮﹐喂﹐感性式都要有個譜架﹐大佬。你可感性式話晒全中國﹐我都係感性式話你一個嗟。我也非親中﹐但你叫得人仰慕理性思想﹐自己就感性批評。好啦﹐講文學﹐又話修養未到家。你話叫人唔好死唔認衰﹐但又一句都聽唔入耳。如果你呢D都叫理性分析﹐咁世界還讀乜羅輯﹑哲學?

你回應:......

不知林兄是真的看不見,還是選擇性定看不見?

林忌 說...

1. 道士兄,以你的說法,批評時事 -> 批評文化現象 -> 批評全中國人

所以, 你就可以對我任意攻擊?
是否如此?
此感性是否等如彼感性?

2. 原來中國文化只有一樣東西,叫文學?
倉海兄用了多少字去「指責」我文學未到家呢?原來文學未到家,就代表不可以批評中國文化?

不知道士兄,或者倉海兄,可會向我認一些自己不到家的事情?

道士 說...

感性式批平 ≠ 批評時事
你沒道理支撐框架的就叫適當感性? 和我無根無據人身攻擊只是目標不同﹐卻也在發洩非理性的情感。

你批評中國人雙重標準﹐死不認錯﹐你的行為不列之於內? 哈﹐我自有我不到家之處﹐你想知邊樣? 你自己提出非理性指控時﹐別人卻要理性跟你解釋﹐又算什麼道理?

林忌 說...

道士你是否說,我全篇文章的所有東西, 都是非理想的?

閣下自己在 blog 的文章, 倉海君在 blog 的文章, 有哪一篇符合你們所說的要求, 有多少篇不符合?

你要感性的抒發, 當然可以; 如果我不服, 我會問你: 請你拿出更多的證據, 而非對一篇短文說: 你的文章是胡說八道, 因為沒有理據。

一條數學題, 我 jump to the conclusion, 沒寫 steps, 你可以質疑, 可以追求更多證據, 卻不是大大聲一句:因為你沒有給證據, 所以我可以任何用粗口攻擊你!

西手西腳 說...

林忌老兄,我撐你呀。現代社會,人人都有權接受教育,係咪先?我會考都有3分啦,學校咁就話我無資格讀中六,直情係人身攻擊呀,淨係話我呢樣唔掂嗰樣唔掂,完全唔理我嗰3分,教育真係虛偽~~

道士 說...

喂﹐唔洗你全篇由頭錯到尾先罵嘛﹐如果你擺明係神經嘅﹐九唔搭八﹐你寫乜都無人理。

就算你證明了我們很多錯處﹐你的便無錯? 算唔算死唔認衰? 宜家重用 tu quoque來攻擊?

好﹐咁你唔該以後清清楚楚define 好你想講乜先啦。你係重新define咗好多謬誤﹐話你﹐你又好似看唔到﹐自己有自己滿足﹐繼續叉開話題﹐無辦法架窩。

你的不是數學題。我用粗口攻擊你也是宣洩情感﹐你發你無理據的指控也是﹐各有各發洩咯。你發洩就叫有條有理(雖無道理)﹐人地話你錯的﹐你就看不見﹐我大大聲屌你﹐就傷害了你弱小心靈。輸打贏要﹐唔好咁無賴﹐好無?

你覺我態度有問題﹐我就道歉咗。你呢﹐認唔認對大眾有個交代﹐就係你嘅選擇。

道士 說...

人地追求更多證據﹐你就話自己感性式文章。人地話你文學/歷史學識不足﹐你就解釋讀理科﹐又或文化多於一門。你話中國人死唔認錯﹐我見你每句都在解釋。你話中國人雙重標準﹐咁如果你呢D都唔算﹐咁唔該你又define一下點先算有雙重標準﹐我都想學下野。

宜家你又問係唔係全篇都錯﹐你如果要我好似補習咁由頭到尾幫你改﹐就唔該磅水先﹐我寫份詳細既分析報告俾你。你篇文一點也不短﹐如果在沒理據的情況下指責不算胡說八道﹐又要點先算呢?

道士 說...

單看你篇文「只是闡述一個簡單的「死不認錯」概念,前後約三千五百字,」和剛剛的「 而非對一篇短文說」就見連對文章的長短你也有兩個標準﹐可能﹐你可話你只隨口說說﹐這些字蝨我個人也不喜歡深究。不過正如你所講﹐我們是否應該反思自己的行為呢?